Check out Marks Daily Apple for a fantastic model. Even The Art of Nonconformity, gets this about having an internet presence. I’d love to be able to get online and find fee articles on realizing the integral vision. I don’t know where that place is. It all seems to be a marketing gimmick.

Very well said! How soon we forget. Reading your blog I was reminded of St. Paul, who seemed to spend a lot of precious ink begging for funds to keep the business (more politely known as ‘ministry’) going. It is both “shirt and spirit”. No shirt and you can’t see the spirit, no spirit and the shirt is empty.

I applaud and support all that Integral is doing and have the strongest admiration for all the staff like you do, and give up, for this work.

Peace,
Greg

I could care less about the way in which it’s being sold, but rather it’s what’s being sold that’s the issue.

It’s not the Dharma you’re selling.

And it’s not better than the Dharma.

And it’s not a superset of the Dharma.

It’s something else, and to confuse it with the Dharma is problematic.

And Wilber’s issues with not coming to terms with statements known to be wrong should give pause.

It’s not just Adi Da, but also evolutionary biology that has been problematic for Wilber. He doesn’t get it, he doesn’t get the scientific method and won’t even acknowledge that fact.

Finally, one last word: if you want to sell something, drop the jargon. In all the things Wilber has ever put on the ‘net I’ve not read one thing new, except for a misapprehension of much of upon which he pontificates.

“Do those of you who remember the men’s sauna with all the posted letters and humiliating caricature s of us forget about the enlarged (almost Floor to ceiling) Ken Wilbur letter where Ken himself called us (Andrew’s Formal Men) “whiney Babies”. I believe this letter was in response to a missive Andrew sent to Ken complaining about how hard his life was trying to get us to move in the right direction.

I remember thinking, how the hell does Ken Wilbur know anything about any of this, the sauna, the humiliating “spiritual practices”, how I was asked to make a “man” out of someone by taking them to the large meditation room and “rough them up” & the rest of it. I remember asking myself who is he to call me a “whiney baby”?

It must be nice to have your ivory tower conversations published but I wonder what Ken would think with his head coming out of Laurel Lake for the 999th time chanting “I only got one side of the story”.”

Ken also really liked another classy individual, Franklin Jones aka Adi Da. A little research on Mr. Da goes a long way.

Yes, most teachers have skeletons in their closet if you look long enough. And that’s kind of the point. Hyping the dharma and spiritual practice into something hyper real makes room for a dangerous mindset. It might be better to tone down this sort of hype, rather than trying to turn the volume up a notch.

We need to look critically at our teachers, our dogma and our cherished beliefs. We need to try and be moderate in what we tell people spirituality can deliver. Because the truth is that there are a lot of scammers, charlatans, and just well-intentioned fools on the path. And the bigger the claim, the bigger the burden is to justify why you should be making such a claim.

I’m a reader of Brad’s blog but certainly no fanboy, and I’m aware of Genpo Roshi and Ken Wilber. I don’t agree with the way Brad attacks some of the people and groups he disagrees with.
But I do think you’ve slightly missed his point here.
I believe that Brad and others are reacting to the idea that you’re selling experiences, promising things that aren’t realistic, and playing to the lowest common denominator in the process.

Promising people kensho experiences, taste of enlightenment, and these sorts of things, is really giving folks a backwards view of spiritual practice. Meditation (zen or otherwise) tends to be boring. Its boringness is part of what makes it important and unique. Sitting with our crazy boring thoughts and staring at a wall is simple and basic and challenges us in a way that isnt necessarily fun.

I think Brad’s point is that by trying to sell meditation as something that will make your life different then it is (it will but not in the way we think it will) is playing to the part of us that will take these practices and twist them into something unproductive. Searching for the “high” or the cool visions or auditory hallucinations one might experience during meditation is having it backwards.

We all have peak experiences. They arent that meaningful. Seeing through these experiences is what becomes meaningful. Seeing through to what this normal, ordinary moment really is–which is to say, its extraordinary–that is meaningful. But it is NOT some peak experience or a high.

And pandering to people’s wish that life be one giant 24-hour high, or mystical state of oneness, is counterproductive and dangerous.

I may have misstated Brad’s position here, but tried my best. Again, I am not a huge Brad fan by any means, for the record. I think he can be quite an ass.

Aaron

thanks for helping me stave off severe brad-warner-induced indigestion. your table manners are most poignant.

thanks for enduring my cheesy metaphors…

~chef

Great, thoughtful post. You’re definitely making contributions of your own–with this blog, and elsewhere–and I strongly encourage you to keep it up. The controversy surround the ILP marketing is not unlike the other “controversies” surrounding the Integral movement in general. It comes down to the use of language, like you say. I’ve struggled with this for years, because not only am I embarrassed by the 2:1 language of the myilp site, but I’m also embarrassed and bothered by the 2:2 approach, as it plays right into the commonly held perception that the Integral scene is “culty,” self-referential, closed to critical dialogue, etc. I prefer the no-nonsense, common sense, jargon-free approach of say, a Jon Kabat-Zinn, who has found a way to appeal to the “Naropa” crowd AND the mainstream, Oprah-watching masses AND really smart progressive types (like, eh hem, yours truly).

But that’s just me bitchin’ and moanin’. I’ve got my opinions, and I feel strongly about them because I really, really do want the crux of Ken Wilber’s work to gain some degree of widespread acceptance, because I think it would help make the world a better place. But it’s up to each of us, I’m finally realizing, to take responsibility for making the shit happen that we want to happen. You, for instance, write with your own unique voice, one that’s neither culty nor cheesy. I’m trying to do the same thing in my own writing. Nobody can sing my song for me.

Thanks for doing what you’re doing.

Well said… Thanks

Great post. I love the honesty! Don’t change : )

Reading this post, Brad’s post that it responds to, and the comments on both blogs, I notice that I place a great value on writing that encourages discussion and inquiry and dislike writing that is trying to shut it down.
And shut it down can take the form of arrogance and anger, as in some of the comments on Brad’s blog, or it can take the form of playing to people’s insecurities. “No, need to worry your little head about that. Your celebrity betters have figured it all out for you already.”